Various bugs/problems accumulated

    First off, I would like to thank you Nirvana for your tireless work, if I can be of any assistance, you say!! (I'm serious) I've been a fan of Europa 1400/Guild franchise since it first got out in 2002, and I am ardent "follower" of it.


    Now, to cut the chase and get to the point, concerning Guild 2 Renaissance, I have been playing it massively in multilayer with my best friend over hamachi for few month now, occasionally having 3rd player join us for at least 3-8 hour sessions, mostly on some of the biggest maps (Hanseatic League, Vienna...etc) with most dynasties 12-16 . We observed ton of problems, bugs, unbalances, exploits...etc Only since we found out this forum and started using beta some time ago, and also started investigating code, we got interested to contribute! Now I finally registered (together with my friends) so we might point out important issues that we together could fix, or at least point out.


    So that I don't make this thread useless with 100 of issues, I will start with few, but most alarming ones.


    1. Cart bug - after some time, and depending on the amount of NPC instances on the map, whole parts of the roads get blocked with huge number of carts rotating around their axis in the same spot. Hindering whole economy not only for player but also for AI. They could be "rested" by manually attacking each cart, but that is useless unless you want to spend few hours doing so.


    2. Complicated micro-managing especially in the late parts of the game, when owning Gypsy camp (Vagabond camp) and Whorehouse (Pub), workers get reset so you need manually position them across the city/map. AI does that rarely, but when he finally enables protocols to, he is sloppy, usually clustering all gypsies on the same spot. Whores don't even leave the Pub with AI. Only solution it seems is to make them work 24/7, but in same turn overpowering those classes/buildings.


    3. Pawn shop/Money Lender - Looking at the code and practically in-game, taking/returning credit by the idle people is so rare, that is most completely useless option, especially looking the income from it. We found a way to make it more interesting and in line with other scholar houses by increasing interest rate that you get credit back and making credit searching and returning more plausible by increasing its importance in std_Idle file!


    4. Market ping - Many time when you own, for instance the only weapon producing business on the whole map, suddenly whole market periodically gets automatically saturated with high quality goods that only I can create, totally ruining the business. On the other hand, not even saturating with needed goods like Wheat flour...etc


    5. Robber camp overpowered - You can usually max out your start character by the age of 29 (4years turn, hardest) if you play with robber camps, also it makes building profitable out of proportions concerning any other building. Not only that you can waylay and blockade any road and gain insane amount of money from it, but you can also ask for protection money, which is the easiest and fastest way not only to cheat away any competition with insane amounts of money, but you can also literally lead ANY AI to bankruptcy. On the other hand, gaining quick levels by attacking random passers, makes whole game distasteful. For instance, king walking alone, or some 10 lvl dynasty character with only 1 thug, make up easy pray for a horde of bastards. Not even roaming guards or even cities united in (players) Marshals control can stop them. Something needs to be fixed here. Organizing robber-hunt by the cities, like they organize wars? That could be nice, especially introducing a new level in politics. Public actions, voting...etc


    6. Infirmary bug - many times, even roaming dynasty characters and any other get stuck in front of AI (sometimes even mine after a longer game) infirmary/hospital trying to "administer treatment". Its similar like the Cart bug, it can usually get fixed by calling characters, but its major game-play breaker.


    7. Courting (gameplay question) - it would be nice, at least showing us where we can change code so that we can court last member of a dynasty, and to make use being able to force marry younger children (something those times knew well). All changes that we searched concluded that that might be hard-coded...


    8. Mutual Assistance pact bug - Its a law in any MP game when we pre-set alliances among players, that in the same time those alliances get broken and players turned hostile toward each other, bugging the system up so that we can never be neutral or even allies. We linked that bug with whores and pickpockets trying to "do" other ally character, bugging up the system. Sometimes when you even hire neutral character, while he is being hired (automatically), a pickpocket/whore... tries to rob him, and in a middle of that process he switches allegiance and they attack each other. Maybe a fix could be that a "favor" system be introduced among even Player dynasties, thing like that.


    9. XP not given - we noticed that many times for many activities both Dynasty character and NPCs (workers too) don't get XP for things they do. For instance, thugs that guard/follow NPC don't level up at all, but guard that just stands there do...etc I can explain more later if you want, because I already hogged up the whole thread.


    10. Many maps needs minimum resource balancing to make it playable with certain classes. For instance there are big maps with only one clay pit in the far corner, like Lyon, Macon and Belley, if I spelled right. I would be glad write all problems like this in one of my next posts...


    11. Quick add, SOUND BUG misplaced sound bugs around the game. Stuck audio. Like hearing birds in courthouse, upgrading buildings have random looping sound of something that code picked (bird, vomiting, clapping, crying...etc). This is very annoying. Especially when you enter and exit building, there is a chance bug of entering/closing door will be constant throughout the game.


    This is for now, I wrote this in haste, I'm sure there are many that I wanted to include that I missed. Hopefully Nirvana, this could be of an assistance. And just to point out we play with hardest difficulty, clean installs, clean patches, newest also. Those above are just problems persisting still from the base game. I would be glad to write more and try to solve those problems cooperatively.


    I would be glad if someone posted any comment on these bugs, hopefully proving that I'm not a lone loony. ;) So that I can spam some more bugs. ;)

    9 Mal editiert, zuletzt von RedCommissar () aus folgendem Grund: details about type of games, and a request at the end

    Nirvana, maybe you should add sticky thread linking to a place where people reported all "continuing bugs" that just can't (or presently can't) be fixed.


    That should stop people for mentioning same bugs again and again, and plus it will make them feel secure knowing that its only a bug (not PC issue...etc) and its already reported.


    Thank you!

    Agreed. We need a sticky topic containing two lists of reported bugs: ones that are known, noted and going to be fixed some day; and ones that are considered 'features' by the Runeforge team.

    I'm going to comment on some of these individually, as I've been playing multiplayer quite a lot sense release and have experienced many of the same issues. I'll add my perspective in such cases:

    2. Complicated micro-managing
    I agree with your observations and am currently in a game where I'm running a pub and having to send the prostitutes out from the pub each day is a bit of a hassle. Could we possibly just have them work 24/7 and make a little less on average per "service" provided? It seems like prostitutes would probably be working late nights anyway.

    3. Pawn shop/Money Lender
    Completely agree here. I've tried playing as a money lender on a few occasions and have never made much money. Your solution sounds like a good start.

    4. Market ping
    Again, same observations here. I know that early on there were some problems with markets not stocking necessary base goods and I believe a lot of those have been fixed. Still, I've encountered maps where a basic good was never or at least almost never in stock. I still think part of this has to do with AI not running their businesses poorly. Some of it might just be a lack of the producing business on that particular map, which is obviously also a problem.

    5. Robber camp overpowered
    This is absolutely true. I think multiple solutions are needed to fully fix this, including the beefing up of cart guards so that robbers need to be higher level to pull robberies off regularly. I also think hiring new robbers should cost more. In combination this would create some balance, though it still wouldn't solve the problem of being "blocked" by robbers. Perhaps lowering the cost of cart guards could help with this, or extending the town guard patrol route into the wilderness slightly more (this would cause some other problems though).


    9. XP not given
    There are definitely a lot of examples of this. I would love to see the XP system revamped to include more actions like guarding/escorting. This is far too involved a redesign, but I think for a future version of The Guild it would be interesting to have attributes evolve more organically, i.e. they evolve as you perform actions associated with them.

    Zitat von Gray

    Agreed. We need a sticky topic containing two lists of reported bugs: ones that are known, noted and going to be fixed some day; and ones that are considered 'features' by the Runeforge team.


    The problem is that I'm the only person that actually know what bugs can be fixed at all. And I don't have the time to maintain such a list :/
    I don't know how long you people can edit your posts in this forum, but if the edit function isn't only available for a short time we can make it this way:
    I need one of you guys who is willing to maintain this list. I will answer his (and only his - I don't want to get multiple PMs/eMails about the same topic more than once :/) requests regarding bugs that are not fixed yet so that he can update the thread.


    Sorry, but that's all I can offer you :/

    Zitat von nirvana

    The problem is that I'm the only person that actually know what bugs can be fixed at all. And I don't have the time to maintain such a list :/
    I don't know how long you people can edit your posts in this forum, but if the edit function isn't only available for a short time we can make it this way:
    I need one of you guys who is willing to maintain this list. I will answer his (and only his - I don't want to get multiple PMs/eMails about the same topic more than once :/) requests regarding bugs that are not fixed yet so that he can update the thread.


    Sorry, but that's all I can offer you :/


    Thank you nirvana, this is more then we could have hoped for! I'll open a new thread, and in it I'll open up the "inquiry" who is best fitted (has most time + will be most active) for such role. You can then delete it (thread), when all is set.


    Thank you once more, for all your effort and work, you are truly irreplaceable!! We all hope Runeforge/Jowood would note your activity, and at least reward you for it!! :great:And even expand your resources!!

    Zitat von RedCommissar

    Thank you nirvana, this is more then we could have hoped for! I'll open a new thread, and in it I'll open up the "inquiry" who is best fitted (has most time + will be most active) for such role. You can then delete it (thread), when all is set.


    Actually, I think I can try maintaining it. I'm dedicated economic management game player, I think The Guild is one of the best examples of this genre (and I would really like to see it balanced and bug-free), I can visit this forum twice-trice per day almost every day, and I've got some grasp in Lua programming (not sure if this shop/guard/dynasty logic is written in Lua though).

    While Nirvana is considering candidatures for the "bug list manager" post, I start to expound my observations concerning mentioned bugs here (as well as ideas of fixing them).

    I've never tried to start as rogue until now, even though I've player every other class and have built any other business building in the game at least once. I just despise the rogue class/lifestyle/ideology no matter if it is RL or any game (and yea, I hate such games like Thief or GTA). However, today I've tried to start as rogue for test purposes - just to check if this class is really as overpowered as people describe be. And, well, yes it is!

    Actually, most of "rogue" buildings aren't really profitable, especially after you set AI to care for them. Extorting in the robber camp isn't much of the problem either, at least with patch 4.16 installed (no idea how good it is/was before). See, you can extort some 700-1000g per day per one tramp from some godforgotten farm, which means 1400-2000g per first level robbers camp per day. Heck, any first level weaving mill can grant you 2000g per day! Let alone mine, which brings you 5k per day (mining gems "manually", of course)... Of course, on late stages of the game you can extort some 3.5k gold from some goldsmithery - though, such building are usually well-guarded, so a plundering attempt after refusal of "protection services" often leads to tramp's/footpad's death.

    But, "waylay" option is extremely overpowered as it is now. I've built a robber camp near the main crossroad, just outside of guard patrol route, and my tramps had to walk just for a few steps to harvest goodies, making me about 11k per day. Of course, it is considered crime, and often leads my char to the court - but, as he doesn't participate in robbery but rather trains in the house non-stop, putting exp gained in rhetoric only, so far he's never been brought in a verdict of guilty. This is truly ridiculous, so there are some ideas how to fix it.

    1) A human carrying 10 planks of oak (let alone 10 bars of gold!!!) is something outside any reasonable limits. I'd say they should be limited to carrying, say, their_level+2 items per inventory slot.

    2) Okay, serfs brought to the court as jurors could be dumb as a brick, and could be fooled with minimal skill of rhetoric. On the other hand, Mediator/Reeve/Magistrate should be not as blind! I'd say pretenders to this office should start with at least 5 in empathy, and it should rise with time, effectively sending robber boss to the pillory (or even imprison him) every now and then. And, indeed, a robber with rhetoric at 1 should be doomed to rot in a dark cell for 2/3 of his life ;)

    3) Finally, I'd suggest every bandit in the gang of imprisoned boss to "lie low" for a while - i.e. hide in the camp and stop any illegal activities until their boss is freed.

    Don't forget a bug where you can override "Ask protection money" action, so you never actually loose bandit, but you can be sure to spam it and eventually "protect" any building from any AI dynasty (and according to their financial status) you can get several 10k of gold per ANY building they own.


    You can even bankrupt them easily.

    Unable to reproduce it... what do you actually mean by 'override'? No matter how many times I click certain building (nor how I click it - using pause and what not), I receive just a stipulated amount of money - 1200g max, not even close to 10k. Are you sure you are playing 4.16?

    Zitat von Gray

    Unable to reproduce it... what do you actually mean by 'override'? No matter how many times I click certain building (nor how I click it - using pause and what not), I receive just a stipulated amount of money - 1200g max, not even close to 10k. Are you sure you are playing 4.16?


    I meant when you select robber's action to "ask for protection money" and it fails, he soon starts to plunder the building. NOW, in that meanwhile, before he actually starts plundering, you click him to walk away, and you re-select "ask for protection money" action, re-selecting the building.
    My point was, that even if your "ask for protection money" action fails, you can still use it again on the same building before he starts plundering. So you "spam" that action until you actually get allowed to protect it.


    I play on hardest, and AI-factions there usually amass huge amounts of money, thus, as I presume, Action "ask for protection money" takes certain portion (%) of dynasty's overall wealth. So, for instance, if they have 100k assets, you will get 5k per building, but if they have 1000k assets, you will get 50k per building. Of course, it takes time (turns) for them to amass that much.


    P.S.
    This comes to my conclusion that if you DISALLOW player to do anything while asks for protection money, you will do major "nerfing" of the Robber camp effectiveness. Acually only thing that would be done here, is to fix a bug.


    Also, I EXTREMELY liked your ideas, that you stated few posts before, that you elaborated how also "nerf" down the rouge class, Robber's camp!

    Zitat von RedCommissar

    I meant when you select robber's action to "ask for protection money" and it fails, he soon starts to plunder the building. NOW, in that meanwhile, before he actually starts plundering, you click him to walk away, and you re-select "ask for protection money" action, re-selecting the building.


    Aha, got it! But that's not a bug, I assume? Or, maybe, it would be logical to set some kind of "recently asked for protection" flag, much like "recently sabotaged", so it would be pointless to override plundering after failed extort attempt?

    Zitat von RedCommissar

    I play on hardest, and AI-factions there usually amass huge amounts of money, thus, as I presume, Action "ask for protection money" takes certain portion (%) of dynasty's overall wealth.


    Hmm, really, it does? Never noticed that - I play on hardest as well, but I play extinction only, so I never see any dynasty to amass as much as 100k (LOL). Moreover, they usually don't even hit 50k, because I start with destroying the richest and taking their possessions ;) No, I'm not a communist - it's "nothing personal, just business": why should I silently rob or extort money from someone so unbelieveable successful, if I can just wage a war against him and consolidate our business?

    Anyway, this is a fault of JoWood team, I'd say. Amount of money demanded from a certain business building should depend on its size (/income) rather than on owner's wealth. It's like trying to extort millions of bucks from a little suburb McDonald's just because James Skinner is extremely rich :lol:

    Not really - it should be under player's control anyway, IMHO. Rather, player should either choose to let tramp plunder given building OR move hum to try to extort from another building (which would probably grant lesser profit, plus waste tramp's time moving). This isn't the biggest problem... I'd say it is in the way of calculating amount of extorted money. Making lvl1 buildings grant, say, 500g per 12-hour protection, lvl2 750g and lvl3 1000g - would fix this problem without forced plunder.