History repeating itself or not?

    Through the years I've played Guild 1+Gold, Guild 2+Hanse Pirates.

    All of them were extremely buggy at launch (lots of CTD's, features not working, pathfinding problems etc.), all of them received minimal patching and all if them were finally left by the developer 4Head and distributor Jowood in a state with serious bugs remaining.

    The fan project add-on/patch "Back to the Roots" helped some, and I eagerly followed the development of Renaissance by fans of the franchise. I was surprised when it suddently went from being a fan project into being a standalone expansion of Guild 2 developed by Runeforge, though that's not necessarily a bad thing.

    However, before I pick up yet another title in this series, I really need to know if Runeforge is in a better position of supporting the game than 4Head. In short: Is this game going to be properly supported until it's bug-free, or is history going to repeat itself once again.

    Don't get me wrong: I really, really, really, really, REALLY want The Guild to succeeed as a game and concept. It's a unique and wonderful game - when it's working :)

    A bug-free Guild 2 is utopian. Also, live's not for free. The patch support consumes a lot of time and I'd rather quit support than going bankrupt.
    But we will maintain the support as long as possible - or as long as necessary.


    There are things that won't be fixed, pathfinding or the buggy sound engine for example. Not because we don't want to fix them or we are not able to fix them, but we can't afford to work about 2 months 40h/week for free.

    Though others may differ in opinion, I think Renaissance is already in a very playable state (probably more so than other versions of The Guild). The most recent patch breaks multiplayer but I'm sure Nirvana will release a patch soon.

    Perhaps the best way to gauge support is just to go through the patch thread and look at when the patches have been released and what they have fixed/changed. So far the support has been good.

    I sincerely hope that Nirvana will continue to release patches, even if infrequently.

    Nirvana maybe its an idea too let experienced modders and programmers help you guys so more work can be done within the same time.

    I would love to get my hands on some documentation about the various functions included in the API so i can help with fixing the bugs.

    Zitat von kinver

    i'm surprise to some replys.
    that's it.

    i think patch support (for running-fix bug, not add-on) is
    free service(in package-price, for Brand power)


    I hope you don't think that we can live from one project of the size of Renaissance per year.
    Of course patch support is included in the packaging price, but support has also to be done by the publisher. We don't get money for patches => we do it in our freetime.


    Zitat von Rogo

    Nirvana maybe its an idea too let experienced modders and programmers help you guys so more work can be done within the same time.

    I would love to get my hands on some documentation about the various functions included in the API so i can help with fixing the bugs.


    Unfortunately that's not an option. The documentation is not our property so we can't release it.

    Zitat von nirvana

    I hope you don't think that we can live from one project of the size of Renaissance per year.
    Of course patch support is included in the packaging price, but support has also to be done by the publisher. We don't get money for patches => we do it in our freetime.



    ...... okay i got it.
    mean is "we brand is low quality game-maker."

    sorry bad joke.

    Nah we should all be glad the runeforge guys are willing to spend their free time making patches. I just think the problem is that we all know the potential of this game, so most get a little bit frustrated if its not what they want it to be. This is perfectly normal.

    Also give the runeforge guys some credit because from my experience as a programmer getting this stuff right is a hell of job. The guild 2 code has been modified over and over so its getting more and more difficult to keep every line of code under control.

    Zitat von Innocence

    Really? So who does actually own this documentation now? Jowood?


    Mostly, yes. We extended the existing documentation a bit, but without the sourcecode it's pretty much useless because it's also outdated.


    Zitat von Innocence


    I figured with former 4Head developers in Runeforge that you owned the source and everything :(


    4Head doesn't exist anymore, so it's impossible for former employees to own any sourcecode or documentation. Maybe some of the former heads of 4Head own something.


    Rogo: We don't need credits for providing patches in our freetime for a product we've developed. It's just that people can try to understand why patch support takes more time than it should, because if they don't understand and accept it I have little to answer.


    kinver: Sorry, but I didn't even understand what you wanted to tell with your joke.. :(

    For what it's worth I caved in and bought the game on Steam the other day. That should pay for about 10 minutes of patching :)

    I've read through some of the bug reports, and I'm pleased to see that players helping fixing some of the issues themselves. Could you please implement the actual fixes in the official patches, and make a note of this in the changelog? As it is, it's impossible to tell if a fix is needed or not. I don't mean the player made custimizations, just the scripts which fix actual defects - like the script making sure the Market will always have a small amount of vital resources (at least until the actual problem can be fixed).

    Zitat von nirvana

    Maybe some of the former heads of 4Head own something.

    Sounds to me like you're not actually sure who owns the source? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get this clarified?

    Zitat von Innocence

    For what it's worth I caved in and bought the game on Steam the other day. That should pay for about 10 minutes of patching :)


    We don't see anything from your money. We were paid once and that's it.

    Zitat von Innocence


    I've read through some of the bug reports, and I'm pleased to see that players helping fixing some of the issues themselves. Could you please implement the actual fixes in the official patches, and make a note of this in the changelog?


    I've looked into some bugfixes and most of them would most likely cause more bugs than they fix or they're quick and dirty fixes with a lot of side effects that are not tested.
    Implementing these bugfixes into our official patches would mean that we're responsible for any problems they cause - and that's something we really want to avoid.


    Zitat von Innocence


    Sounds to me like you're not actually sure who owns the source? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get this clarified?


    What for? We (Runeforge) don't own any rights on any assets or sourcecode. We got a task (Renaissance) from JWD and we finished it. So if someone owns the rights on something it's JWD or (maybe) some people from former 4Head.

    Zitat von nirvana

    We don't see anything from your money. We were paid once and that's it

    Sorry to hear that

    Zitat

    Implementing these bugfixes into our official patches would mean that we're responsible for any problems they cause

    Good point, although the fix for the Marked, as I understand it, is actually taken from a prior Guild 2 expansion.

    Zitat

    What for?

    Wishful thinking mostly :) I was hoping they might release it for the modding community, but no, why would they.

    Zitat von Innocence

    Good point, although the fix for the Marked, as I understand it, is actually taken from a prior Guild 2 expansion.


    We don't want the market to include a shadow market again. That was one of the most criticised things of Guild 2, people wanted a realistic market.
    Now with the latest beta patches the market is pretty much stable. It's clear that there are no resources at the market when there isn't a source for this resource on the map, though.

    Zitat von nirvana

    We don't want the market to include a shadow market again. That was one of the most criticised things of Guild 2, people wanted a realistic market.
    Now with the latest beta patches the market is pretty much stable. It's clear that there are no resources at the market when there isn't a source for this resource on the map, though.



    I for one am in full support of keeping it this way, too. The only thing about the market that still confuses me is the list of top bought/sold items. It seems like the items in these lists are either not actually the most bought/sold or are reversed.

    Zitat von nirvana

    We don't want the market to include a shadow market again. That was one of the most criticised things of Guild 2, people wanted a realistic market.
    Now with the latest beta patches the market is pretty much stable. It's clear that there are no resources at the market when there isn't a source for this resource on the map, though.


    I agree as well, we wanted realistic market and it's only natural for a market to not have any items that that town or map doesn't produce. One thing that can actually remedy this is by expanding the overseas market aspect of the game by allowing the trade halls to import much needed products by the town/map.