4.17 Politics, Titles, and Town Growth Broken

    version 4.17b



    I posted this in the bug tracker, but wanted to post it here so I could get some feedback from other players. Thanks for your opinions.



    By the third round of the game on the map “Duchy of Calenberg,” Hannover grew to be a town. During this round, my only character purchased the title “Citizen without full civil rights.” As described by the associated privilege, I was able to apply for civil service at the lowest level and was accepted as the Guild Master. Within 2 rounds, Hannover grew into a City and my only character was automatically promoted to Seneschal, as per the game mechanics. Within a few more rounds, Hannover grew into a Free City and my character was once again promoted, now becoming the Consul. I had never purchased the title “Citizen” which allows application to all local offices, nor had any of the other elected officials nor anyone else in the town. All elected and unelected persons remained “Citizen without full civil rights.” In addition, only approximately 25 years had progressed in the game.

    The office of Consul offers unique privileges which make advancement to the next tier of office easy, so I acquired the money necessary to purchase the title “Citizen” and apply for the position of Chief Magistrate. This was Spring 1432. After applying for the office, my datebook told me the council meeting was scheduled for Spring 1416 at 17:00. Assuming it to be a minor bug and expecting the meeting to be actually later in the afternoon of the same round, I waited. The message informing me of the coming meeting appeared and I rushed over to the assembly hall. I arrived well before the other council members. The entire council and I waited until well into the evening of the next round in the assembly room with the meeting never taking place and with none of the NPCs leaving.


    Zitat von JackArbiter


    A note on town growth,


    One problem I've seen with vanilla 4.17b (aside from 50% population increases between turns 1 and 2, and lots of growth afterward) is that when a war was launched hamburg swelled from 375 to 450 for a minute when the army was in town. At this point it became an imperial capital. Then the pop dropped back down when they left the map.




    Out of these experiences, several bugs and flaws can be recognized and several suggestions for needed changes can be made:

    1. NPCs do not purchase titles.


    After 32 game years no NPC, part of a dynasty or otherwise, purchased any titles despite having more than enough money.


    EDIT: Apparently, this isn't true:

    Zitat von nirvana


    On higher difficulty levels the AI will also buy higher titles then citizen. I saw some noblemen in my tests as well.




    2. There is a serious bug related to political meetings. It is one that breaks the system.

    The council meeting to elect the Chief Magistrate never occurred despite it being scheduled and announced. This happened during all reloads and reattempts. I have no expectation that it would be different in any new game or for any other office.


    3. The method of filling the top offices after town growth is not ideal.

    The positions that require the title of Citizen never actually do, neither at game creation nor after town growth. At the beginning of the game when the towns are at the Village level, the office of Village Mayor requires at least the title of Citizen, but the NPC filling that office never has it. Whichever NPC is selected to have that office should automatically have the title of citizen.


    4. Towns grow too fast.

    25 years, significantly less than 1 generation, should not be enough time for a Village to grow into a Free City. It is my understanding that the population count is the primary factor determining the level of a settlement. Perhaps a town should not be able to grow unless it has enough people of adequate rank to fill in the new offices? I doubt a “Citizen without full civil rights” would ever be allowed to become Sovereign of a Free City by any nation during the 15th century.


    5. Certain settlements, because of their growth speed at the beginning of a game, seem like they are supposed to begin as a higher level town.


    If settlements are growing so fast because they are already so big, have them start at an appropriately higher level and be sure that all offices are filled with NPCs with appropriate titles. While you are at it, add some variety to the initial titles given to NPCs. All of them start at “Citizen without full civil rights” or lower. Have some Citizens, Free Citizens, and Patricians thrown in there and some nobles if an appropriately large and powerful enough city.



    6. When soldiers are in town during war preparations, they count towards the town's population and hurry town growth.

    Soldiers should not affect the rate of a town's growth into higher tiers. Being that they are either temporary residents or recruited/drafted from people already living in the town, soldiers probably shouldn't add to the population count at all.

    This is very well stated and a superb first post. I agree with all of your points, but have provided some detail regarding my own experiences below:

    1. NPCs do not purchase titles.

    While I cannot state definitively whether or not this is true, I have observed colored dynasties in possession of titles higher than citizen without full civil rights. It may, however, be the case that some dynasties begin the game with higher titles. Nirvana can easily clarify this.

    2. There is a serious bug related to political meetings. It is one that breaks the system.

    As with point one, I have not observed this particular scenario first hand, but I have come to a point in several games where the magistrate position was unfilled and NPCs did not seem to be applying for this office. The obvious consequence is that trials could not be held. Note that I do not think the way trials work (i.e. that they require a magistrate be in office) should change, only that there should nearly always BE a magistrate in office. This goes for other offices as well. It makes the game far more interesting when they are filled (and being competed for).

    3. The method of filling the top offices after town growth is not ideal.

    Again, I agree. I have seen some strange things happen when town status increases. This ranges from what you observed with your fast promotion to office holders actually losing their seats.

    4. Towns grow too fast.

    Also spot on. Just the other day I was giving some thought to my experiences with Europa 1400 and even some previous version of The Guild 2. In these cases one of the more engaging aspects of the experiences was that I felt invested in not just my own dynasty but the progression of the city. There is much potential in The Guild for this dynamic to thrive. We already have systems for town progression, employment, overall religious affiliation, and an economy in place. It just needs to work properly and give the player (and other dynasties) the opportunity to influence it.

    5. If certain settlements are supposed to be larger and more powerful than others, have them start at a higher level and have the persons filling the offices possess the appropriate titles.

    I could go either way with this one. A more dynamic system might allow for towns to grow in power based on the economic and political decisions of the dynasties residing and trading there. This relates to my remarks under point 4. It would be extremely rewarding if I, as the player, could help my home city thrive, thus positioning it as a more powerful city relative to the others. The economic and political advantages should, in this case, also mean something. Again, this is already built into The Guild. Only the capital city offers the position of Queen/King and its market is generally more diverse.

    Thanks for the feedback, General Chaos. I really like what you said about town growth and development. For me, I could only see what was currently wrong with it and not how great a feature it could possibly be.


    The thing about town growth is that larger and more developed cities lead to generally better supply and variety in the market, but also vastly increased competition. As such, I still think that having different cities on the same map start at different levels would be a positive change to the game. It would make the choice of your business and hometown more important for your long-term success and it would add more flavor to each map.


    What I mean is that a balance would need to made by the player between a better developed and supplied market and increased competition. At the beginning of a game, the player is only able to run businesses at the first level. A poorly developed market may not have the best supply or variety, but it is likely able to support a few identical low level businesses or businesses that compete for similar resources. At the same time, a well-developed market can easily support a large variety of identical or competing businesses, but the competition may be too intense for the upstart player and his or her business. The player could also get lucky and have a well-developed market but little competition or be terribly unlucky and be only able to find a lot of strong competition with a terrible market. This would all be in addition to the politics and office structure that exists in towns of different levels which could also affect the player's choice for their hometown, as he or she is more or less interested in politics or business or both. There is a lot of potential to improve the game if the growth rate and starting level of towns is considered.

    Zitat von General Chaos


    While I cannot state definitively whether or not this is true, I have observed colored dynasties in possession of titles higher than citizen without full civil rights. It may, however, be the case that some dynasties begin the game with higher titles. Nirvana can easily clarify this.


    On higher difficulty levels the AI will also buy higher titles then citizen. I saw some noblemen in my tests as well.


    I will look over the other points of this post asap, I just wanted to comment that point right now.

    A note on town growth,


    I edited citylevel.lua as follows:


    local Count = CityGetCitizenCount("") - 100


    just to see if it would have an effect. It seemed to slow down the growth a lot (unless I'm being an idiot and it does nothing). One problem I've seen with vanilla 4.17b (aside from 50% population increases between turns 1 and 2, and lots of growth afterward) is that when a war was launched hamburg swelled from 375 to 450 for a minute when the army was in town. At this point it became an imperial capital. Then the pop dropped back down when they left the map.


    The surrounding areas are still small, 5 years in, but pretty soon they'll overcome the -100 :(

    Jack I was unable to try your change because there are two references to local Count = CityGetCitizenCount("") in that file and you don't explain if one or both must be changed.
    Thanks

    Sorry, not the first one after calcstartuplevel (which checks right at startup), but the 2nd one (which is the one that checks after startup every ingame hour).


    I ended up putting it at -200. I play almost solely on hansa map and pop growth is usually way too fast, not to mention the war population boost.


    Now even though the population booms the cities level up much slower (at least so far) because the -200 is hard to overcome.


    (EDIT)
    And don't forget, you have to restart your game. Script states are saved within savegames.

    On a side note is there any way to try and get the population to grow faster in YOUR town from within the game mechanics? I'm getting sick and tired of having to start a new game from scratch over and over again because another town became the Imperial Capitol.
    Thanks


    PS The Imperial Capitol mod does work for me but not without putting 8 forges in my town at the start so that wont work.

    Zitat von Poet


    On a side note is there any way to try and get the population to grow faster in YOUR town from within the game mechanics?


    In my experience, population grows quickest when new businesses open and are hiring new employees. It seems to me that as soon as an unemployed person is hired, another one pops into existence in the same town and raises the population. That is one of the problems with town growth, that the towns grow fastest right at the beginning of the game as you and the other dynasties get settled in.



    Zitat von JackArbiter

    A note on town growth,


    One problem I've seen with vanilla 4.17b (aside from 50% population increases between turns 1 and 2, and lots of growth afterward) is that when a war was launched hamburg swelled from 375 to 450 for a minute when the army was in town. At this point it became an imperial capital. Then the pop dropped back down when they left the map.


    This is another major problem with town growth. If you do not mind, I am going to add this to the original post (I read it a long time ago, but it just occurred to me that I could edit my post and add it).

    20 years before population growth sounds pretty good. Actually, that should be the minimum before a town with average population growth advances. I should think once per generation to be a good standard.


    Zitat von Poet

    Hey Jack have you had ANY city grow yet at -200? I'm 20+ years in and while pops are slowly growing not a single town has advanced yet. I'm in Cologne at 290 pop.
    Thanks

    Zitat von Poet

    Hey Jack have you had ANY city grow yet at -200? I'm 20+ years in and while pops are slowly growing not a single town has advanced yet. I'm in Cologne at 290 pop.


    It's likely too much at -200 if you want the towns to keep growing. On hansa I had hamburg increase to imperial capital (400 pop plus an army went through, I think, but then that might be a -100 game I can't remember) but london is too restricted to get past town and bergen too restricted to get past village. Danzig might grow eventually from village to town.


    If cologne is too restricted to get past 290 (which is like 90, which means it won't grow for a while) then it won't grow at all.


    This wasn't meant as a permanent solution, just something I wanted to try. To me it's better than the towns growing but I might try back at -100 since some towns aren't ever going to go much past 200 (which is effectively 0 at -200).


    And of course if the villages aren't restricted and keep growing you'll have no growth for a while til the -200 is overcome, and then they'll grow fast afterward. So I'll see if I can't come up with a more elegant temporary mod.


    BTW don't ever start using robbers to extort, it is so much like cheating that it'll ruin your game :(

    I am going to try this but don't have much time so not sure if I can thoroughly test it soon. But you might see if it works for you.


    in citylevel.lua find


    local Bounds = citylevel_GetValue(Level)


    add: +1


    local Bounds = citylevel_GetValue(Level) +1


    the following if then statement will be inversely affected by adding 1:


    if Bounds[2] < Count then


    so that Bounds[2] is less likely to be less than Count


    this way instead of having to find a magic number that works, the cities will level, say, to town when normally they would be leveling to city at that time


    it might totally not work, i'm tired and might not be thinking straight :intello:

    Grew to a free city with the latest war but the other three towns are all stuck at 170 pop and the lowest town level at - 200.


    Since the other cities matter little in the current game I'm playing (5 Dynasties in Cologne) I am going to keep playing and see what happens.

    Zitat von JackArbiter

    BTW don't ever start using robbers to extort, it is so much like cheating that it'll ruin your game :(


    Yea, I also try to restrict myself to only dueling within the same guild. It's unfair for a lvl 9 rogue with max MA, Dex, and Con to go after a Scholar with Rhet and Handi.... lol :whistle:


    Pardon the off-topic post - just a challenge idea for those that don't like breaking this amazing game by 'cheating'. :wink: